New Technologies, new work

Clarissa Groß: Hello Oliver, I’m delighted to be here today.

Oliver Driesen: I’ll start right off with my first question. It’s not yet common everywhere to be on a first-name basis with a senior executive from the personnel development department. Is this a sign of New Work in practice?

Clarissa Groß: Maybe a little bit, though not everyone at HHLA is on first-name terms with their colleagues yet. It varies depending on the area and level. Though we have yet to get to the point where everyone is on a first-name basis, it’s always been normal to use the informal “Du” in the port. I really like working with “Du”, and I have the feeling that it’s becoming more and more common. I think it’s good to let it develop organically, and it’s also totally legitimate that not every Executive Board member, for example, wants to be on first-name terms with everyone. That doesn’t make it any less modern. We like to use “Du” in personnel development. We also mostly use it in workshops, because it creates closeness and makes it easier to get into conversation.

Oliver Driesen: New ways of working and curiosity are already implicit in New Work. I assume you are naturally a curious person.

Clarissa Groß: Yes, I’d say so. I think part of doing my job is being interested in new things. Sometimes I’m almost a bit too interested. Keeping an eye on the wide range of learning content and on organisations and working environments means there’s a lot of material to be curious about. In fact, instead I sometimes need a focus here and there to concentrate on what’s really important.

Oliver Driesen: Has personal curiosity become a more important quality for managers and employees overall today?

Clarissa Groß: I don’t know if it has become more important; it’s probably always been important. Maybe it’s become even more important because things are changing even faster than they did 100 years ago. Speaking of technological progress, you have to stay curious to some degree today, because the technologies you begin your career with will definitely be different when you leave it.

Oliver Driesen: We’ll get into this in more detail shortly. How does the great importance of curiosity fit in with HHLA’s corporate culture?

Clarissa Groß: Very, very well, I’d say, which is why I like working here. It’s part of our DNA, especially when you think about our core business, the container segment. We’ve always been part of the changes, and have actively helped shape them. In places where people used to handle sacks, they now handle containers. There are always reasons to be curious and innovative, and I think that’s really nice. Especially when you talk to colleagues from Terminal Development or HHLA Next, which deals specifically with new business ideas and start-up models, there are an incredible number of curious people. We need that so we can try out new things, do things differently, and see where we can get even a little better.

Oliver Driesen: I mentioned this earlier: at first glance, many New Work topics seem to fit better in office environments – such as advertising agencies, banks or insurance companies – because it seems easier at first to optimise working conditions for everyone there. They’re just not so concerned with, and restricted by, constraints from the physical world. But in a port and in a company like HHLA, it’s all about extremely heavy containers, trucks, cargo vessels and freight trains. They have to be at a certain place at a certain time, no matter what the weather. Does New Work take on completely different aspects for you and personnel development than for an office-based company?

Clarissa Groß: I’d say yes and no. We should look and see where this term came from. You said it at the beginning: it was coined in the 1970s, so it’s not so new anymore. The original approach behind this labour theory was more a criticism of the economic system as it functioned at the time. It was a revolutionary idea: people should work on what they want to work on, with a stronger focus on fulfilment. I thus find it fascinating that we often use the term New Work today as a catch-all for new working methods, for foosball tables, for more flexibility. For me, it's much more exciting to look at how we can make work better. Right where it happens, and with the options that are available. Discussions about whether port workers might also work from home are not terribly interesting – at least not yet. Maybe they’ll get more exciting in the next few years, when the work profiles in the port change.

Oliver Driesen: This is also my next question. Technological development is changing work throughout the economy, but especially in the port. Today, for example, trainees have to fear that their profession will look completely different in a decade’s time, or that it will no longer exist in the same form. Is that actually a new phenomenon?

Clarissa Groß: First of all, I don’t believe that trainees need to be afraid. On the contrary, they have huge opportunities today because they come into the company with a completely different attitude towards the use of technology. This allows them to help shape the future right from the start. Even more so the faster these developments continue. So as far as that’s concerned, nobody has to be afraid. On the contrary, we rely a lot on our young talents and trainees, who have a completely different kind of natural ability to deal with greater dynamism and technological advances. But of course, apprenticeships continue to develop. This is something we need to look at, and ask: which skilled occupations continue to offer our colleagues good prospects for the future?

Oliver Driesen: How quickly and in what way are job profiles changing in the port? Do you have an example?

Clarissa Groß: Over the next one to two years, we will be dealing with the fact that an increasing proportion of work will be carried out remotely. There is already some equipment out in the port that is controlled remotely, rather than directly on the heavy machinery – and there will be even more in the future. This doesn’t happen in offices at home yet, but rather still at the terminal on site. Of course this changes the working day enormously.

Oliver Driesen: Even port tugs can already be controlled remotely from any terminal today, theoretically without a crew on board, at least in model tests.

Clarissa Groß: Exactly, and there are also examples of ports where individual tasks are even operated from other countries by remotecontrol, because local proximity is no longer necessary. Another example from the technical professions: today’s devices don’t just have screws in them, but also a lot of software. That means software plays a very important role in vocational training today, especially in technical fields.

Oliver Driesen: You’ve actually already partially answered a question that I wanted to ask. If you think about the way that automation is advancing, what still makes HHLA attractive as a training centre?

Clarissa Groß: Here I also wouldn’t speak of making HHLA attractive despite automation; automation is precisely what makes it attractive. Young people who have just left school find it extremely exciting to think about topics relating to AI, for example.

Oliver Driesen: All these processes and developments and new fields of technology that you have already mentioned will transform work in the port. New Work in the literal sense. How are you preparing yourself and your employees for it?

Clarissa Groß: I think it’s very, very important to learn yourself. That’s personnel development for us in the HR department. We’re involved in technological developments ourselves, with potential applications for AI. So we’re also trying things out on ourselves, so to speak. We want to continue to stay ahead of the wave as best we can, and not swim behind it.

Oliver Driesen: It’s clear that vocational training and continuing professional development in the port are also subject to dynamic change due to rapid technological developments. One specific project in this context is PortSkill 4.0. Could you briefly explain what this is about?

Clarissa Groß: As the name suggests, it’s about capabilities and skill sets that will be needed in the port in the future. It’s a very exciting research project that is organised in a network. It’s also very exciting and important because technological developments and changes in job profiles naturally also play an important role for employee representatives and trade unions. What responsibility do we have for our employees, how does technological progress ensure that new job profiles are created and, of course, that people continue to remain employed?

Oliver Driesen: Who are the members of this network?

Clarissa Groß: The Verdi trade union is on board. The entire project is managed by ma-co, the maritime competence centre, a training provider with whom we work very closely in the port industry. And we at HHLA are also involved. A colleague from my team is heavily involved in this, and other port companies also participate.

Oliver Driesen: If I’ve understood correctly, PortSkill 4.0 is also about developing or applying contemporary learning formats. Does that mean that traditional learning and methods from classic professions no longer work in a modern port? How could such a contemporary learning format look in practice?

Clarissa Groß: In the project, we’re exploring potential ways to use things like virtual reality for training – VR and AR technologies.  Obviously, today we have other options for training people, including for very practical assignments. This means they no longer have to work on the original equipment at the terminal, but they can also do it in a protected environment. They then work with simulation devices and virtual reality to simulate emergencies such as fires in the terminal. Of course, you can’t do that so easily in the real world. The virtual world offers lots of great opportunities that we are currently testing.

Oliver Driesen: People who talk about New Work today, or about new, contemporary forms of work, usually also refer to “agility” and “resilience”. These are two qualities that employees need in almost every profession today. How would you explain these two frequently used terms in the context of the port?

Clarissa Groß: My understanding of agility is that it’s a fundamental attitude that I use to approach problems, in a more iterative process. In other words, I’m feeling my way forward.

Oliver Driesen: Step by step...

Clarissa Groß: Exactly. Agility originally comes from software development. First of all, it was clear was that you could no longer set a project timeframe of four years, so you only planned what the software should look like once at the beginning. Within these four years, the technology, the possibilities, and the solution requirements will change. Now we experience this not only in software development, but in many, many areas. Taking it gradually, checking here and there to see whether we’re still on the right track, building in feedback loops, etc. Completely different approaches to projects, and to any problems, have developed.

Oliver Driesen: And resilience?

Clarissa Groß: Resilience is also a word that has been heavily and frequently used, especially during the coronavirus crisis. Those years contributed significantly to making us personally more resilient in certain areas. Organisations have also become more resilient – this means they have a certain robustness. If I have gone through crises and learned to apply new solution strategies at certain points, it usually helps me cope better with future crises.

Oliver Driesen: Right, the world is obviously becoming more and more crisis-prone, unfortunately, which is why you need agility and resilience. Now there’s a phrase from management Chinese that describes the world in which people need these qualities. It says that the VUCA world has become the BANI world. Those are two abbreviations with four letters each, and you have to please translate them into English for us mere mortals.

Clarissa Groß: I’ll explain the abbreviations, that makes it a bit easier. In recent years, we, and people in management circles, have repeatedly spoken of the VUCA world. Translated into English. The four letters stand for four terms: volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. Ambiguity plays a major role here. This is also a term that we often use when we talk about modern times and developments. It was shaped during the years of the coronavirus. At major conferences, people now talk about the BANI world to express that this uncertainty and complexity has become even faster, even less predictable, even more fragile. BANI means brittle, anxious, non-linear, and incomprehensible. This is a good representation of the various crises that are currently affecting companies and us as a society. Climate crisis and wars in Europe that we could not have imagined in recent decades, technological developments that function more and more quickly. BANI is an attempt to express how our world is currently changing, and which management and working methods are needed.

Oliver Driesen: In this BANI world, which has become even more unpredictable, HHLA has to cope like everyone else. To what extent can that be seen in the company – and of course, personnel development – today? Are you agile and more resistant than you were ten years ago?

Clarissa Groß: One example that comes to mind: we no longer develop concepts behind closed doors for so long. We try things out much more quickly. We start with the initial pilot groups when we want to test new learning offers. For example, we are very quick to bring other departments and colleagues on board to test things out. This doesn’t just happen in our HR department, but in many other areas of the company. This exploration of new solutions and also the much faster harmonisation of interim results are just one example.

Oliver Driesen: How did you learn this? How can large organisations learn anything at all? Are there seminars, for example?

Clarissa Groß: Well, I have yet to find the perfect seminar for learning to learn. But that’s not all that important. Even the seminars that personnel development offers are really of secondary importance at this point. It’s more important for us to determine together that the important thing is THAT we learn. Incidentally, this also includes unlearning things. This means that people also learn a lot in our seminars and programmes about how to question things, try things out, discard familiar patterns and rituals. Do I have to ask my boss before I speak to my colleague from the other department? It is important to question that and do things differently. And sometimes you have to put up with the fact that this initially causes confusion in this kind of organisation.

Oliver Driesen: Data-based decisions are a major technology trend today. To what extent do they play a role in personnel selection and also in personnel development, and will this continue to increase?

Clarissa Groß: If you look at studies on this, and also look at what is and will be possible, it will definitely increase. We have to be prepared for the fact that large parts of our job, my job, can be done or supported by AI in the future. There are already ways of integrating this into learning formats today. AI can accompany you throughout your day-to-day work, and you can ask it questions about what you have learned in a seminar, for example.

Oliver Driesen: Is staff selection also affected?

Clarissa Groß: Today, we already have options to at least do a pre-screening. There are ways of going through profiles on social media platforms ahead of time. Many people have reservations at first, because they say: when it comes to hiring people, we still want humans to look at this. But one won’t completely replace the other. At the same time, we are also learning that data-driven work, especially during these initial steps, leads to quite good decisions.

Oliver Driesen: And data-driven means specifically that these social media profiles are not analysed by humans?

Clarissa Groß: Exactly, that’s one example.

Oliver Driesen: Now we’ve talked a lot about change and flexibility, as though it was all self-evident. But not everyone is thrilled when they have to question themselves and the way they have worked for many years, and then adapt to new requirements. How do you convince these traditionalists in the company to switch from old, entrenched structures to new ideas? What do you see as the incentives?

Clarissa Groß: First of all, I think that traditionalists play a very important role in organisations, because it’s not good for any company to turn everything upside down and question everything from one day to the next. Certain things have become established and work well. In this respect, I always find it very important to deal with this resistance and this attitude. This is important, and it provides a good counterbalance to all the things you want to change in a hurry. People who may play an important key role and are critical of innovations should be brought to the table and taken seriously. These people also often have good tips about what must not be lost amidst all the new things that are coming. This is usually also an incentive, if you like. It ensures that people feel that they are taken seriously.

Oliver Driesen: But if someone outright refuses to move forward and to apply new knowledge, does it result in pressure and other unpleasant consequences?

Clarissa Groß: Development is not an end in itself. There is usually a reason why individuals need to learn something new and adapt to new things. And it’s very important that managers maintain a dialogue with their employees as well, that they explain why it’s so important to learn certain things and get involved. At the end of the day, of course nobody in an organisation is under arrest. You’re also allowed to make a decision. Anyone can say, “I’m going along with it, or I can’t and don’t want to go along with it at this point”. At HHLA, we are very mindful of remaining in dialogue with employees. We look to see where there may be other places where these people can be better utilised – where there’s a better fit between what the person wants and can do, and what the company needs.

Oliver Driesen: Maybe the employees who seem less flexible also feel like this “New Work” is just a kind of pretence. Their work isn’t getting any better, but it’s intended to drive them to perform better. What do you say when you hear that kind of worry?

Clarissa Groß: For one thing, I think it’s really important that New Work is not used as a backdrop, for precisely this reason. Within HHLA we deliberately avoid using the term “New Work”, for example.

Oliver Driesen: What do you call it?

Clarissa Groß: We usually give the project a descriptive name. Where are we coming from, and where do we want to go? At the end of the day, it’s about making it clear what our goal is, and what the benefits are for the individual people. Of course, it’s not the case that everything is always going to be better for everyone. That’s something you have to deal with. I think exactly the wrong thing to say is: I’m setting up a foosball table for you, or I’m designing a particularly fancy new office space. In some places it’s really nice, and please don’t get me wrong: I think foosball is totally okay too! But it’s not the solution to the problems that really bother people.

Oliver Driesen: One factor that can make someone less flexible or unwilling to learn is advanced age. There are certainly other factors. Do you have to adapt personnel development to the age structure of a company like HHLA? And how can training programmes approach older employees in particular?

Clarissa Groß: First of all, I’d like to say that I don’t see older employees as unwilling to learn. On the contrary! Colleagues who only have a few years left in their careers are often very interested in learning new things, but also in passing on their knowledge and experience. What we do, for example, and what all sides benefit from, are mentoring programmes. We like to bring junior staff, young people, together with experienced colleagues. They both learn something in the process, and that’s really nice to see.

Oliver Driesen: Particularly at HHLA and in the port, people from a wide variety of cultures and countries of origin work together, and this mix is becoming increasingly diverse. The keyword here is “Diversity”. How does HHLA overcome linguistic and cultural challenges so that a multicultural workforce can work together optimally?

Clarissa Groß: The first and most important thing is that we clearly position ourselves as being in favour of respectful cooperation and a non-discriminatory working environment that is characterised by mutual respect. Regardless of origin, skin colour, age, gender or other characteristics. Everyone has a home here at HHLA. HHLA is diverseand will stay that way.

Oliver Driesen: Nevertheless, there are still some problems, for example relating to language.

Clarissa Groß: Yes, and that’s why I’m very pleased that some time ago, we created a position dedicated to developing strategies to make the best possible use of just this kind of diversity. The first thing my colleague said to me was: it’s important to clearly demonstrate that diversity is a huge advantage, and also a competitive advantage, for us as a company. There are all kinds of offers, opportunities and leadership training courses on how we can handle diverse teams and different cultures well. With regard to language, this is the easiest option. We offer a variety of in-house language courses, including an increasing number of German speakers who want to attend English courses so they can communicate well in an international environment and with mixed teams.

Oliver Driesen: Well, now I have to ask you about an aspect of New Work that is becoming increasingly important for many employees: the proverbial work-life balance. How can I achieve a better balance between my hard job at HHLA and my private life? If I have to look after children or care-dependent parents, for example, but also with regard to my other interests? Is that even possible at HHLA, where everything has to follow the rhythm of the containers?

Clarissa Groß: Yes, it’s absolutely possible! The most important thing is to create good framework conditions, and we have them. Here, too, it’s a great advantage that HHLA is a company with strong employee involvement and strong representatives who strive for good working conditions in all areas. Conditions that leave people enough time to spend with their families, even when they’re working the night shift at the terminal. And of course, let’s not forget our colleagues here in the office, who have many options for more flexible work. A relatively high percentage of them are still able to work from home. A remote working schedule of up to 100 percent is possible in agreement with the manager. This gives us plenty of options and flexibility. And that’s a very important point, I think.

Oliver Driesen: Today I’ve learned that rapid change in the working world in the port brings many challenges, but that New Work also presents opportunities for employees and personnel development. Since a new way of working is the inevitable consequence of new technologies, it’s better to take a forward-looking approach and shape it actively. I learned this from Clarissa Groß, who I’m speaking with today. Thanks very much for this, Clarissa!

Clarissa Groß: Thank you, Oliver.

Oliver Driesen: And to make sure you don’t miss anything before our next podcast in the series, you can subscribe to our newsletter at: hhla.de/newsletter

The interview was conducted by Oliver Driesen in July 2024